Topic: Questions/Concerns regarding JO.

[Ralin]

Edit: I just realized I missed the other General forums and misread the discreption for this section........oops....
Note: This is rather lengthy.  You have been warned!
Greetings <JO>,

   I’m sure some of you remember me hanging out on your server from the past few evenings, but I am also aware that many of you are not aware of my having been making frequent visits to your server.  I’ve been talking to Jorka quite a bit lately.  I recently expressed many concerns and questions I had pertaining to The Jedi Order, and I must admit that he has provided me much of the friendly aid I was in need of.  However, he suggested that I bring my questions and concerns to the <JO> as a whole so that I may see what you all think.
   Let me first warn you before I begin that this is going to include a brief introduction to my previous clanning experience (for I believe that it would help you to understand where I’m coming from).  I would like to apologize for anything I may say that may sound like I am bragging, am full of myself, or anything that is in the least bit negative, for it is not my intention to express the attitude of an elitist.  That said, I shall now begin.

   Having 11 years of online gaming experience (currently 20 years of age and a history/literature dual major), I have developed many opinions pertaining to clans.  I have had my fair share of troubles, as well as many successes.  I began my online gaming around the time of Diablo’s release in November of 1996.  I continued to join groups until I left a group called Dominion [(*D*)] in the summer of 2000.  At this point I created my first clan for the Dreamcast, and once Phantasy Star Online was released we quickly acquired a member count of between 13 and 18.  However, this success was short lived.  With the release of the new consoles, members dispersed and I was once again left without a clan.
   I did not join another group until May of 2001, with the release of Jedi Outcast.  Having had prior experience with clans, including several groups in Unreal Tournament, I knew how a FPS group should function.  However, this new Star Wars game proved to be unique.  It’s saber combat system was extremely addicting and challenging, and it also tended to add different ways one could run a clan.  I joined a server titled “Jedi’s Home”, owned by a man going by the name of Jediael.  I spent two weeks visiting Jediael often, and we quickly became good friends (yes, it is very possible in an online game).  In November of 2001 we decided to make Jedi’s Home an official clan, and thus named it the Jedi of Light (JL).
   Following principles of honor and respect, it made it difficult for many to be accepted into our group.  For many it would take a few months before they’d ever be allowed to wear our tag.  I invited a few of my close friends, among which was Shadow Stone and Elusive Sora.  By the summer of 2002 I had obtained the rank of Jedi Knight, and by the winter of 2002 I had obtained the rank of Master.  However, 2003 proved to be a troubling year.  The now thriving clan suffered a terrible blow when our dear friend Jediael was shipped to the middle-east to aid in President Bush’s War on Terror.  He quickly handed the reigns down to me (being the only other founder), and thus we would never see him again until 2005, and still even that last encounter would be brief. 
   Many questioned my abilities to lead a group, so I quickly formed a Jedi Council, stripping away the majority of my powers so that I had equals.  This system proved to work.  Unfortunately, though, members began to lose interest in the game, and by the end of the summer of 2003, the only members left standing were myself and Stone.  However, with the release of JKA we managed to bring ourselves back to a member count of about 45 members by January of 2004.  Though for many JKA proved to be the ‘Golden Years’ of JL, it proved to be the most difficult period of clanning I have ever experienced.  Close friends proved to not be friends at all.  Left and right I had people (whom I would now consider to be immature children who had too much time on their hands) attempting to “take over” JL, blaming many of their problems on the net on me, and ruining what friendships we had formed.  Now, normally something like this would not have phased me in the least.  But understand that these are people I had just spent years getting to know and growing close to, and in the end they cared nothing about me or anyone in the group.  (Note that not everyone became corrupt or adapted the mindset of a conspiring child.)
   I managed to end the conflicts that grew to plaque JL, but the damage had been dealt (on the surface anyway).  We had gone from around 45 members to around 13.  However, the 13 who remained were extremely tight, and even today we are still together.  JL kept to itself in 2005 the beginning of 2006, and by the spring of 2006 it’s members had grown so close that we were already making plans to meet in person.  We decided to move JL to a new community I was building, NeoCetra, so that we may keep in touch yet still move on to newer games.  So in truth JL did not ‘die’, it just merged into the newer group, NC (which is not in JK).
   
   Since JL moved to NC, I have been clanless in JKA, and have spent the past 9 months wandering the servers.  I had not managed to find a group with a friendly atmosphere until I ran into Jorka on The Void.  There I noticed his Anakin Solo signature and pm’d him on the forums, asking how he found a picture of Anakin Solo with his blade extended.  He told me that he did not make the sig, but that Achilles, his Master, did, and recommended I track him down.  Achilles was not on Xfire (and I could not find his true screen name it seems), so I used Google to find your website, and from there obtained the server address for <JO>.  As I waited on your server, I quickly noticed how friendly everyone was.  Not only were they friendly to their own peers, but also to the guests of their server.  I soon lost interest in seeking Achilles out, and instead began to connect to the server after school and work to closely watch the group.
   It has now come to the point that I am considering applying for a position in this friendly atmosphere called The Jedi Order.  I must say that the vast majority of you have impressed me with your friendly attitudes towards others, and I feel welcome when I am on your server.  So, I still have a few concerns I would like to bring to your attention.

   Taking into account the experience I have with clanning, please understand that I have not actually joined a group in years.  I have created groups for the past 6-7 years.  I would be lying if I were to say I am a follower.  Just a few days ago I attempted to join a clan in Phantasy Star Universe, and when I tried to help plan events or express concerns I had in a few areas (such as member activity), members quickly grew hostile and I thus left the group without a word. 
   That said, how well does this group treat the opinions and suggestions of others, regardless of their position in the group?  I am the kind of person who, once I find a problem, I develop the urge to see that the problem is fixed.  If not by me, than by someone (or a group of people) who can fix the problem.  This means that if I were to see the clan were to be inactive, or better yet, the actual leadership (I’m aware this group is lead by a council) be inactive, I would bring to everyone’s attention and make suggestions and express my concerns in the hope that the problem(s) would be fixed and things would turn out for the better of the community.

   Another concern of mine is the RPing aspects.  I have no problem RPing, but I do have a problem with everything being an RP.  You see, I’ve noticed people addressing padawans as just that, padawans, and masters as though they were ‘superior’.  Where I do understand that this may be an aspect of the actual RP aspect of this group, understand that my real views towards life might slip into the way I talk, and I would end up calling everyone as whatever their name is on the game, minus their actual title.  I view everyone as though they were on the same field as I am when speaking to them, and as such I have a problem with acting as though I am inferior to anyone (and I also have a problem with treating others as inferior).
   
   Much to my dismay, it appears as though I will have to use the pint-sized youngling model.  Where I understand this adds to the RP aspect of things, it vexes me because I enjoy the EU of Luke’s era more so than the prequel era.  In the EU, someone could study as an adult and still become a Jedi (meaning I wouldn’t have to use a child for a model).  And of course, Mars’s youngling models represent the 4-6 year old younglings, not the younglings who would be older.  So it puzzles my why you would use those youngling models, and not simply just making a model like Anakin Skywalker (the episode 2 one) very short.  Those helmets creap me out!
   But do not worry, this is just a personal dislike of mine and will not interfere all that much with my actual application.  Just wanted to get that off of my chest. :p

   I do sincerely hope this group does not have a problem with someone being worse or better than they are at dueling/ffaing/etc.  A few groups I was investigating grew extremely angry with how I was better than them at dueling, and thus would not let me join, saying that it doesn’t make sense for a padawan to be more skilled than the members of the council.  I am sorry that I already have 5 years experience in this series.  I do not intend on hiding my true abilities.  And I do apologize if that made me sound cocky.  Again, it is not my intention.  I am just trying to be honest.

   So, with that, I would like to know.  What are your thoughts, and would this possibly be a group I would be welcome to join?  Would this group be right for someone like me, or should I continue searching or simply consider starting another group or uninstalling the game all together?

Thank you in advance, and I look forward to seeing your responses and playing with you on the server!

Sincerely,
Ralin Alastair

NOTE: I see that this might have made me sound like I take the net too seriously.  I just consider it a hobby of mine.  My writing tends to be like this when I am trying to be formal, so sorry about that.  I do have a personal life, so please do not think of me as an obsessed clanner

[Noki]

Ok, even though im meerly a hopeful i can attest that this is a very friendly clan. This clan consists of 2 opposite sprectrums. For 1 JO RP's and they also goof around. If your looking for a clan that involved more in companionship and close relations, JO is probably one of the best choices. If your looking for clans that are more RP or more goofing off, i could suggest ::JEDI:: for serious RP, or eS, a big time laming clan. I like to consider JO like baby bears poreige. its "Just right"

[*<JO>*Kaeawc Farore]

I might be able to give you some more specifics about *<JO>*:

Everyone's opinion is heard equally in *<JO>*... we have many ways to communicate ideas and make announcements or hold discussions, including a monthly clan-wide meeting which all *<JO>* are supposed to attend and bring their thoughts to discuss.  For the sake of bringing order to the meeting we speak in highest to lowest rank, however if someone must leave soon they are allowed to speak in advance.

Rank is given to those who have proven themselves trustworthy, to be good friends and kind to others, and the higher ranks are given to those who exemplify leadership.  There is no reason why a Padawan cannot lead where a Master can.  There is reason for certain occupations like Recruiting and Order Relations to only allow Knights or Masters because it takes time to see that people have good judgment.  There is reason for Padawans to only be allowed single saber so that they are forced to practice the basic stances before moving onto exotic stances.  There is reason for Padawans to only be allowed to select on of the *<JO>* Padawan skins because it takes time and effort to create skins that we would not want to spend on someone who might leave or decide to change their RP character to another species or something.  Those with ability or voice are allowed to act and speak, however the RP we run as a clan limits some things as I've written above.

It is a part of our Code to always greet other Jedi with their Title.  It helps people get into the RP mindset and it shows each member respects every other to call them by their earned rank.  When I address, say Padawan Quin, I do not mean to show that I am superior.  I highly respect him for how much he has learned and his willingness to learn and participate with others, so I address him with his Title.  Another part of our code is to respect all equally... this goes hand in hand with that.  No one is treated as inferior to another... if a person in our community needs help, others who can lend their aid to that person.  Some members become friends, some don't, but all in all its a happy group.

^_^ I remember using the youngling model, it was fun.  Especially when sparring Master Xzar, or when he led us on a mission.  The small size gives excellent bonuses to hiding and dodging which gives so much more variety to our RP.  You are permitted to join with a character at the age of 5, I believe Master Kor or someone else did that once.

We do celebrate those who have finely tuned their combat skills as they are the ones who goto general assemblies or clan matches that represent *<JO>*.  Rank and combat skill, however, are not related at all.  I've usually found that people improve over time, and thus usually a Master can best a Padawan, however that is not always the case and has never been an issue.

If you have more questions feel free to post them and we'll be happy to answer them.

-- Kaeawc Farore

[Ralin]

Thanks a lot for the response Noki and Kaeawc.  I met Kaeawc a few nights ago, and I have to say he's a very good person and I look forward to gaming with him again in the future.  I met Noki last night and though neither of us said much to each other, he's a fun person to duel with.

I think I'm starting lean more towards me applying for a position, so we'll see what I decide.  Again, thank you for your response.  If anyone else has any comments to make, I welcome those comments.

[*<JO>*Menelaos]

I too have been playing since Diablo first came out. I was on of the regulars in the Channel Trading Post and was knows around the Diablo community. While being a regular there, I joined Ckhd as my first clan and only clan during my Diablo days.

Ckhd was in SC, Diablo and WC. The members of Ckhd were not selected by applications or recruitments, they were invited by senior members after they had proven they were there for the right reasons and for the long run.

Many of the “Posties” as we called ourselves, moved from Diablo to D2 and some of us still remain till this very day.

Prior to joining JO, I was a member for a brig time with LOTJ and learned quite a bit about how an unorganized clan looked from the inside.

While being a member of the Council for JO, I have had the pleasure of also leading Covenant in MS and have taken lessons learned from each game to the other.

Yes, we do allow concerns to be raised…by our members. I am one who feels that outsiders know too little about what actually goes on, or have a true understanding to be capable of forming an informed decision. Your concerns have been raised by others who did not know the Jedi Order before, and will be raised again. But as Master Kaeawc has pointed out, there is a reason to our ways.

He is right in what he has said, but there is so much more to each and every point raised by you. However I do not feel that it is either any of your concern as an outsider, nor do I feel that the Jedi Order should feel the need to answer such uninformed concerns. It is rather simple for those who do not like our ways…they can find someone else who suits their ways.

For years, we have been quite successful with the present rules, and see no reason to change any of them. Our code has changed only in wording, but never in content or meaning.

I have earned, through much work, my title, and thus feel that the proper respect should be shown by newer members such as I showed those who came before me. Equals we will be, once they too have put in the effort I have into this clan, and once they have earned their right of passage into the higher ranks.

Simply put, you earn respect, you earn inside knowledge that is of no concern to lower ranks, and you earn your ranks. Until you have done so, you are not equal to someone who has and pretending this is the case is just a flagrant lie.

All your so called experience, and your cockiness may have served you in your past clans. However the Jedi Order is no ordinary clan, and where you to apply and the Council accept you, know that you start new just like any other applicant.

Great resume and all, but it means nothing once you join the Jedi Order because you will be a true equal to any other Padawan in our Order and will be required to follow the same rules that Padawans have been following for years.

The above may sound harsh, maybe even rude…the truth is when it comes to the Jedi Order, I am very protective of it since I have spent the last 3 years + in it, and I truly feel that outsiders should really keep their concerns to themselves because 90% of the time they don’t have a clue what they are talking about.

Regards,
Menelaos

[Ralin]

Of course I was only asking questions and was in no way asking for anything to change.  And, as I said, I did not intend to come off as cocky or arrogant.

Edit:  After re-reading Menelaos's response, I also felt that I should add that this group has a lot in common with the Jedi of Light.  More so than you know.  It'd take me a while to explain in detail, so for now I will not give a detailed description of what JL was.  Just know that everything (save the youngling model thing) about this group is not foriegn to me.  I just need to know where the actual members stand.  Writing something down on a website is one thing, but actually meaning what you say is another.  Where I'm not too thrilled with Menelaos's response (honestly it felt somewhat hostile and defensive when it needn't be), I know that he means well for the group and was standing up for the group he's working for, and I am impressed by the vast majority of the members in this group.

Again, thank you for your responses.

[*<JO>*Ekul]

To help you understand where Master Menelaos' response is coming from and to give some more background to JO:

JO has been around for years. We have experience in how we run things. We like our clan to be RP based. If you don't like that then this is not the place for you. Where you come from doesn't mean anything. JO is different so you need to get to know JO before you can make accurate assumptions about it. As Master Menelaos said, you start fresh in JO. What you have done prior to JO is all well and good, but it does not mean you can act like a master when you are just a padawan.

Master Menelaos seemed defensive because many people come and tell us how wrong we do things. They have no idea how JO actually works, but they complain anyway. They complain about our rank structure. They complain that "padawans aren't listened to." That is totally untrue because anyone in JO can raise a concern. If a padawan joins and instantly starts to complain and make posts about how some higher ranked person is inactive, it is bad. It may be true, but the padawan should send a PM to a councilor or their master and let them deal with it. It is not a padawan's place to correct a master. The padawan can alert a master if another master is doing something wrong, but the padawan shouldn't take the matter into their own hands. "Bringing it (a problem such as inactivity) to everyone's attention" is the wrong thing to do. You could PM a councilor, or multiple councilors and tell them about the perceived problem.

How good a dueler you are is of no import. I was never a good dueler (and I'm still not very good), but I worked at it. If you are an amazing dueler you will not be seen as superior in JO. You will be respected as a dueler, but that will not effect when you have your trials.

If you are going to join and complain about problems in the main JO boards, you don't have a place here. You should send a PM about your concerns. If you are going to join and make friends and have fun, then you have a place here.

[*<JO>*Menelaos]

As I posted in the JO boards, I was impressed with his first response to my post. He did not react the way I would have assumed someone would. However, his edit proved that my first instinct and impression was a rather accurate one.

Ralin, you come into our forums and post your concerns about a clan that trully does not concern you and you expect what? A Council that will welcome you with open arms and call you our saviour? Of course my response is defensive. For years I have seen people like you come to our forums and server and think they know better on how JO should be run.

Go try your little post in |E|'s forums, or JEDI's and see if you do not recieve a similar response from their Council. You don't walk into someone's house as a guest, complain about the furniture selections and expect to still be treaded well by the home owners.

With all due respect, we have been around for quite a while, seen many other clans who knew better fall, and we see no reason to change what has proven to work. If you can accept it then apply, if you however feel that without your suggestions being applied this is not a clan for you, then you better look elsewhere.

Regards,
Menelaos

[Ralin]

I see.  It appears as though there might be some misunderstandings or miscommunication.

A skill based clan is of no importance to me.  Changing the way a clan functions is of no importance to me.  I am trying to become better informed before I send in my application, and it was recommended that I make this post by Jorka...so I made the post. 

I'm looking for a group that respects the opinions of it's members, keeps everyone's concerns and interests in mind, and acts according to the wishes of their members as well as the goal(s) of the group.  I'm looking for a group in which I could become friends with not only those of equal rank to myself, but of those who would be both higher and lower.  I'm looking for a group that has leaders (aka the council in this case) who do not view themselves as Gods, but as men and women working in what they feel is the best interest of the group and it's members.

If an issue concerns something that only the Council can handle (or should handle), I have every intention of sending a pm/e-mailing/messaging them privately.  If an issue concerns the group as a whole (messed up server, inactivity in the clan in it's entirety both inside and outside of the council, etc.) then I personally feel that making a message for all to read would be better, since it would concern everyone.  I would obviously contact the Council first.  I'm not supid.  I spent 4 or so years with a council-based group, so I'm pretty sure I know how things would run with a council setup.  It's just that I've seen some pretty hypocritical groups in JKA in particular, so I brought up these issues to see how you would respond and to understand what I'd be getting myself into.

I'm fine with "climbing the ladder".  Not once did I say I wasn't.  I'm looking for a group that is friendly and honorable.  I'm not trying to barge in here, start raising controversial issues, and try to change things I don't like.  I'm telling you what's on my mind and getting as much information as I can before I apply.

That said, how well does this group treat the opinions and suggestions of others, regardless of their position in the group?

This can only be answered by me asking you guys, not by me reading the website (which I did).  By my expressing my concerns and being out in the open, I was able to recieve something similar to the kind of response I would probably recieve in the future.

Where I do understand that this may be an aspect of the actual RP aspect of this group, understand that my real views towards life might slip into the way I talk, and I would end up calling everyone as whatever their name is on the game, minus their actual title.  I view everyone as though they were on the same field as I am when speaking to them, and as such I have a problem with acting as though I am inferior to anyone (and I also have a problem with treating others as inferior).

I said this for several reasons.  First, people make mistakes.  We're all human.  If I were to address Master Ekul as just Ekul, what would happen?  Would I be lectured? Punished? Or would it even matter?  Your site says that this is an RP, and it also says that members are to address everyone by their title first, followed by their first or last name.  Second, since this is an RP, how far can I take that RP?  What if my Jedi were intended to be somewhat informal, having a problem addressing people by their titles?  There are more ways to express respect than by calling someone a Knight, Master, Hopefull, etc.

I do sincerely hope this group does not have a problem with someone being worse or better than they are at dueling/ffaing/etc.  A few groups I was investigating grew extremely angry with how I was better than them at dueling, and thus would not let me join, saying that it doesn’t make sense for a padawan to be more skilled than the members of the council.  I am sorry that I already have 5 years experience in this series.  I do not intend on hiding my true abilities.  And I do apologize if that made me sound cocky.  Again, it is not my intention.  I am just trying to be honest.

I'm confused with how that paragraph gave you a sense that I have aspirations of gaining ranks as a result of my skills, or even care about my own skill.  Did "I do sincerely hope this group does not have a problem with someone being worse or better than they are at dueling/ffaing/etc." not tell you that I'm looking for a group in which skill is a not the deciding factor?

If you are going to join and complain about problems in the main JO boards, you don't have a place here. You should send a PM about your concerns.

At no point was I complaining, save my not liking the youngling models.  But as I said before, that was just me getting that off of my chest and being informal about it.  Whining could be considered a synonym for complaining, and I most definately was not whining.  I was expressing my concerns to better understand this group as a result of the responses I recieved from it's members.  To be concerned means that something that is important to you and that affects you is on your mind.  THerefore, I was expressing things that affected me, were important to me (IE your clan), and therefore I wanted clarification and a deeper understanding for <JO> before I send in my application.  I'm a very honest and out-in-the-open guy, so I do hope that this is not a problem.

I apologize if my latest response appears to be offensive, but I can't help but feel as though a few you were not too happy with me voicing what's on my mind and seeking answers.  If my concerns only involved an individual, than I would have contacted them in private.  Since my concerns invovles this group in it's entirety, I made the post for all to see.


And Menelaos....to be frank, I have no inkling as to where you got the impression that I had no interest in this group.  If I had no interest, I would not be here.  How does this come off as me attacking this group, putting it down, or doing any harm what-so-ever?:

Edit:  After re-reading Menelaos's response, I also felt that I should add that this group has a lot in common with the Jedi of Light.  More so than you know.  It'd take me a while to explain in detail, so for now I will not give a detailed description of what JL was.  Just know that everything (save the youngling model thing) about this group is not foriegn to me.  I just need to know where the actual members stand.  Writing something down on a website is one thing, but actually meaning what you say is another.  Where I'm not too thrilled with Menelaos's response (honestly it felt somewhat hostile and defensive when it needn't be), I know that he means well for the group and was standing up for the group he's working for, and I am impressed by the vast majority of the members in this group.

You were not being hypocritical, and so far have not been.  Though you in particular Menelaos....let's just say I'm starting to have a bad feeling about this.  Read what I say, understand what I say, or do not respond to my posts at all.  If you do not read for understanding, than you will embarrass yourself.

As of now I am insulted and disappointed.  Menelaos, if you would like to turn this into a slugging fest, you're welcome to add me to your MSN and we can have an argument there.  This thread was not created to involve an argument, so therefore I will not argue with you. 

[*<JO>*Kaeawc Farore]

(This word now belongs to Menelaos!) there are other ways of showing respect, however our RP demands that our characters call each other by their respective Titles.  If someone did not follow this rule, then they would be corrected.  If someone refused to follow this rule, they would be refusing to follow the Jedi Order Code, and thus refuse to be apart of this clan.  This is all implied in the current Code on the website.

Ralin, you are starting to follow a path I once walked... I'd advise you to think more about what you're saying.  You have doubts and concerns about things that are apart of our everyday life here, and while it is fine that you are curious and interested in knowing as much as possible about *<JO>*, you are not treating it as such.

-- Kaeawc Farore

[Ralin]

I see.  Thanks Kae.  I've pretty much got all the info I really needed.  If we kept going it'd pit me against others and I don't want that.  I had fun on the server today so let's just end this now before anything serious starts.

Thanks for your responses guys!  See you on the server and around the forums.

[*<JO>*Shin-Tetsu]

Why these long posts?